Content
# #tsi-capp — 2025-11-12
**16:13 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762992791345829):** So, further investigation is showing that there are several of the control narratives that are to be in the MFS (Membrane Filtration System) PLC. I am detailing this in a document.
**16:14 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762992876731849):** Multiple narratives for one process?
**16:14 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762992894598199):** there are 30 narratives
**16:15 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762992903401349):** multiple processes
**16:15 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762992947204969):** Sounds complicated. What’s your take on how this is all prepared? Does it feel well engineered, over engineered, messy?
**16:18 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762993080910149):** so far it seems well organized
**16:24 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762993453254399):** looks like it is going to require some coordination between us and the vendor skids. I hope their programmers speak decent english!
**16:44 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762994658573259):** Oh boy.
**16:44 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762994666926149):** Ok. I’m setting up now
**16:44 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762994690985449):** Let’s see if we can get some numbers together that we’re comfortable with
**16:53 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762995232923279):** I'm reviewing the spec sections for the membrane filtration and ROs to get a final determination as to what is included in their scope.
**16:55 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762995311456709):** Looks like the most complex narrative that is our responsibility will be the Injection Well Operation 3.33, if you want to review that one first
**16:57 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762995450343319):**
[[F09SGNPGHE1_extracted_pages_from_capp_-_vol_4_specs_control_narratives.pdf]]
**16:58 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762995481954829):** Copy
**17:03 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762995805232649):** ok.. reading through it now
**17:03 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762995823654759):** try not to fall asleep
**17:03 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762995831621249):** exciting stuff?
**17:04 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762995840882219):** oh yeah
**17:04 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762995898755969):** 3.33 which page is that on?
**17:05 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762995918516909):** it's going to be near the end
**17:05 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762995951674569):** pg 73
**17:05 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762995953400499):** it looks like it ends at 29.. im still getting my bearings
**17:06 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762995973416239):** I see 93 pages
**17:06 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762995999390939):** in the document that you linked above?
**17:06 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762996013322809):** it only shows 37 pags for me
**17:07 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762996036867279):** standby
**17:07 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762996050135049):**
[[F09SZ56SLGH_extracted_pages_from_capp_-_vol_4_specs_specific_control_strategies.pdf]]
**17:07 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762996064947819):** too many files....my eyes are crossing
**17:18 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762996684279869):** ok
**17:18 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762996733552399):** i dont see anything anything obscure or confusing. it all looks pretty straight forward
**17:19 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762996760885519):** how do we want to estimate this. i feel like a solid week would be good to get that written and polished
**17:19 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762996764873929):** it may only take 2 or 3 days
**17:19 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762996771596169):** but 4 or 5 would be conservative
**17:19 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762996785187169):** meaning 10 hour days.
**17:20 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762996828927419):** does that include in-house testing/validation?
**17:20 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762996857500289):** i was only thinking programming.. in-house testing would only take a few hours.. we could call it one day
**17:21 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762996865635739):** well. whats the scope there.
**17:21 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762996868372319):** are we loop checking?
**17:21 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762996880049719):** or just function testing
**17:21 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762996898711819):** just making sure the logic is functional. Loop test will be on site
**17:23 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997000826209):** while i program im constantly simulating and testing the logic
**17:23 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997014628339):** ok good
**17:24 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997042241689):** let's find another one for you to look at...standby
**17:24 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997067980099):** im doing one more review here. let me count up the instruments, and control loops
**17:25 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997118292379):** go ahead and document whatever you figure here in slack. it will help us to come up with a formula for future estimations.
**17:25 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997146167319):** and this project i can keep close track of my time to see how it compares to what we estimated
**17:25 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997152428369):** for each section
**17:27 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997222783619):** when you are done there, check out 3.31 Purified Water Pumps
**17:28 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997303637259):** 14 instruments per well.. 3 control modes. nothing absurd here.. one week would feel comfortable
**17:28 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997311762779):** 3.31?
**17:28 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997337476529):** yes
**17:29 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997366506499):** my 32 pump Lead/Lag/Standby code is going to save us some time
**17:30 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997400248019):** love it!
**17:31 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997489884149):** any weird integrations? VFDs on ethernet ip or any modbus?
**17:33 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997592174289):** I think all vfds are ethernet
**17:33 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997621488439):** Eth IP, but let me verify
**17:36 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997803702139):** all it says in the spec is "Ethernet communications shall be available".
**17:37 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997832202589):** ok. there may be time required to integrate ethernet IP devices.
**17:37 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997840078449):** I will add time for that
**17:37 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762997866100299):** ok.. right now we're just talking about control logic and PLC programming correct?
**17:42 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762998137460609):** I have time broken out for OIT, Historian, and testing work, which we will review when you are ready.
**17:45 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762998309847909):** We will put a time estimate to creating a screen(s) for each plant function (narrative). We will account for individual equipment objects (graphical and logical) in the General IO estimation. Any time listed for each narrative for screen creation will be what is needed over and above individual equipment objects. Not sure this is entirely necessary though, but I want to put some extra time in to each narrative estimate for OIT work
**17:49 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762998549181759):** From the Membrane Filtration System spec:
The MSS shall assume responsibility for controlling all equipment related to MFS
(feed water control valve, strainers, membrane rack control functions, backwash
pumps, air scour system, compressed air system, chemical cleaning system, and
chemical transfer) regardless of the Scope Assignment
**17:54 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762998898497069):** 3.31 i feel like 30-40 hours as well..
**17:56 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762998981209639):** adjusting the number and the speed of the pumps baed on RO output and injection well availability.
**17:56 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762999017902199):** level protection...
**17:58 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762999111891719):** copy
**17:58 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762999132140729):** next?
**17:59 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762999169774899):** looking
**18:01 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762999272552609):** check out 3.13 waste eq tank
**18:02 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762999328573269):** copy
**18:05 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762999516926219):** easier for sure.. 20 hours.. likely complete in a day
**18:06 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1762999576761369):** cool. check out 3.8 UF Feed Chemicals
**18:18 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763000314253559):** 3 chemicals.. 2 pumps each. lead lag. flow dosing or "analyzer driven trim control" dosing adjusts based on analyzer feedbacks...tote monitoring, pressure protection.. flow verification
**18:18 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763000337689499):** 20 hours. 30 feels safer
**18:20 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763000422752579):** copy
**18:26 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763000770944329):** is this helpful? going forward im going to do what i can to improve our estimating abilities
**18:26 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763000791616889):** yes, quite helpful
**18:26 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763000796948439):** ok good.
**18:27 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763000822364659):** check out 3.23 Sulfuric Acid next. I'm not sure if we are actually controlling all the chem feeds, but would like to put something in there
**18:29 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763000971298799):** are we programming the UF PLC?
**18:31 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763001071418079):** one day.. 10 hours. 20 to be conservative.
**18:31 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763001088112369):** No, the UF PLC is by the MSS
**18:31 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763001094489459):** copy
**18:34 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763001292764569):** How long are you wanting to work tonight?
**18:35 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763001304482149):** i am commited to get as much done as we need
**18:35 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763001330376049):** youve probably had a long day already.. sorry i had a lot more driving than i expected
**18:36 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763001412335169):** ok thanks. I should only need a few more things from you. Appreciate you being available.
**18:37 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763001440296799):** i appreciate you helping me live this crazy life
**18:37 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763001463923739):** check out 3.3 through 3.6
**18:43 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763001806678149):** plant startup (3.3): 2 days feels safe.. 20 hours. likely done in a day (10 hours)
**18:43 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763001822261069):** are we able to see the other bids? or is it blind
**18:43 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763001839263509):** (after the fact.. im sure its not available before theyve chosen)
**18:44 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763001884288719):** 3.4 is minor and can probably be included with 3.3
**18:45 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763001912302529):** yeah, we can view bids after the fact, but we will only get a lump sum and who the sub was
**18:45 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763001942972009):** hm.. yeah i would be curious how other firms estimate the hours for this.
**18:46 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763001996726569):** my AOI work will help us.. but i dont want to bank on it.. this is kinda scary work. trying to guess how much time it will take
**18:47 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763002070935759):** I think they just bid on IO count probably. You can pair down most of it to the number and type of IO I think. They also have experience with larger projects.
**18:48 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763002125395749):** yes it is a daunting task to estimate a project of this size. and if we get it wrong, it could be a big loss. but I'm confident we can get pretty close
**18:48 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763002138300809):** man.. IO is one thing. but complexity can add so much more time.
**18:49 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763002145477129):** i am too. i want us to get this
**18:49 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763002171017189):** yeah I really have no idea how they bid it.
**19:03 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003039641669):** level monitoring, RO train counts, low level shutdowns, TOU scheduler, normal mode, spill mode, offline mode, dosing logic for CT basin...
**19:04 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003049321079):** this one feels like more moving parts
**19:04 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003066865169):** 30-40 hours
**19:04 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003084757029):** this is 3.5 EQ tank
**19:06 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003197761189):** copy
**19:10 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003426179319):** 3.6 is pretty simple.. one day.. 10 hours
**19:11 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003489834849):** what do you think about historian time? do you think it is necessary to account for this separately?
**19:11 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003509509249):** ignition historian?
**19:11 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003513329109):** hes
**19:11 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003515204639):** yes
**19:12 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003520364269):** what are the requests? just to historize? or reporting?
**19:12 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003537828529):** both, but I am counting them separately
**19:12 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003547130339):** so just to historize for now
**19:12 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003564190039):** no extra time really programming
**19:12 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003573858509):** but time required for making sure the database is set up
**19:13 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003582985219):** do we need to install a database soemwhere?
**19:13 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003584714339):** and configure that?
**19:13 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003601823169):** yes, there will be setup and config of a full redundant server
**19:13 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003624284379):** one day will be enough to get a database installed and configured and verified.. even for redundant servers
**19:14 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003680388269):** Thanks for your input @Reno Hiltermann
**19:15 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003727096209):** ok, lets review my general IO estimating tables
**19:17 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003822195719):** did you take a look at those?
**19:17 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003832063559):** where can i find that
**19:17 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003844387449):** go up in the channel, there is a link
**19:18 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003910190559):** it might be best to do a huddle to discuss these if they aren't clear
**19:19 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763003988707039):** k.. standby
**19:23 [Slackbot](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763004201237339):**
**19:24 [Kevin](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763004275266219):** standby
**19:24 [Mason Radke](https://slack.com/archives/C09RQLEH9C4/p1763004290567649):** k